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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Sep 17, 2009 8:48am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

“Well, Doctor, what have we got—a Republic or a Monarchy?”

“A Republic, if you can keep it.”

Attributed to Benjamin Franklin at the close of the Constitutional Convention of 1787, when queried as he left Independence Hall.

Time to take back Our Republic........

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Poster: Earl B. Powell Date: Sep 17, 2009 9:25am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

I for one would like our elected folks to be much more mindful of the constitution, considering it a guiding principle rather than a stumbling block. I'd also like to see the Bill of Rights and other of our guiding documents be seen for what they are, and that is having foundation in Judaic-Christian ethics.

The days of moral relativism and overly sensitive political correctness need to come to a close.

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Sep 17, 2009 11:04am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

" I'd also like to see the Bill of Rights and other of our guiding documents be seen for what they are, and that is having foundation in Judaic-Christian ethics. "

I have to call BS on this one. First of all ethics didn't start with F'm Judiasm or Christianity. What typical western ethnocenric crap. SOME founding fathers were Christians to be sure but the FUNNY part is the one's who were the most responsible for our Republic, and the documents of which you speak, were the ones with the most vocal adversion to religion - Jefferson and Madison and others. This is a fact that is in their actually writings so no amount of spinning this anti political correctness talking point BS is going to rewrite what is historical fact. You want to look to Christian Dogma - then look to the quakers who were pacificists and CLEARLY would have allowed us to remain a colony observing a monarch if they had their way. I've read that Franklin was Christian but if you want to talk ethics and values SURELY committing adultury isn't a Christian value so what kind of BS are you talking about? Probably one of the most avowed Christians that actually walked the walk AND was extremely important was John Adams but he certainly was guided by understanding or making it a point to understanding HUMAN nature. And also funny is he was one of THE strongest advocates of a tricameral Government and was extremely in favor of a strong independant judiciary. The EXACT kind conservatives hate.

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Poster: Earl B. Powell Date: Sep 17, 2009 4:20pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

I would be speaking of the ten commandments, nothing more, nothing less. But it's nice to see you used your wiki to respond.

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Sep 17, 2009 5:04pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

I know you're in love with Glen Beck and the like but I didn't use Wiki. Does it make you feel better to make up lies?

Ten commandments - show me where the F that's referenced in any of their writings, and those themes found in the ten commandments didn't start with your prescious Christian crap. Why don't you get off Fox and do some independant research?

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Poster: Earl B. Powell Date: Sep 17, 2009 5:13pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

Easy money Johnny. Thou shall not kill. Next. Thou shall not steal. How about civil law? Thou shall not covet thy neighbors wife.

What's next?

If the guiding principles did not come from Judao-Christian ethos...you tell me where they came from.

Where?

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Sep 17, 2009 5:32pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

exactly!! the guiding principles COULD NOT have come from anywhere than from a Judeo-Christian matrix. The populace would never have (as a majority) bought into anything else. In general, the "masses" will not start from scratch in the political/religious realm (i realize that there are individuals who will deviate from this norm). Even the beginning of Christianity/Catholicism borrowed heavily from a Roman Deistic tradition as well as the prevalent pagan culture - it makes it so much easier to assimilate newer members if their minds feel a "hithertobefore" attachment to the "new way."

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Poster: Earl B. Powell Date: Sep 17, 2009 5:46pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

Like the Quartz Hill School of Theology?

You have gone so far off base this time, you've even lost all cred as a flaming liberal. When you can come in here and really debate the merits of your position, and show it has some kind of standing in real, not revisionist history, I'll be glad to show show some respect for your position, as you have never, never done mine.

Until then, all you've shown is junk politics and in this case a very poor understanding of history.

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Sep 17, 2009 9:47pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

uh-huh

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Sep 17, 2009 10:30pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

" I'd also like to see the Bill of Rights and other of our guiding documents be seen for what they are, and that is having foundation in Judaic-Christian ethics. "

Oh No Earl! I've lost credibility with you to even be classified as a flaming liberal? Whatever will I do? My politics are junk? If only you could show me the light!

Recognized HOW? Merits of my position? If some or most of the more important figures - such as the two that wrote the constitution and declaration - purposely had aversion to allowing Religion into Government ( what's revisionist about using their own fucking words Earl? ) - why is it so important to you exactly that we acknowledge it? You say I'm ignorant about history but I haven't seen anything from you backing up any of your points.

This post was modified by johnnyonthespot on 2009-09-18 05:28:57

This post was modified by johnnyonthespot on 2009-09-18 05:30:42

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Poster: William Tell Date: Sep 17, 2009 11:33am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

Taken literally, and simplistically, ANY religion can claim moral authority, by definition, and therein lies the problem. You really can't discuss matters of faith with respect to humanistic interpretation because they just don't mix...and for those of a religious bent, that is as it should be (no one wants their faith open to constant revision and updating, and when they do, it reveals the fundamental limitation of the dogma at its core).

Now, that said, much of religion with respect to humanistic guiding principles is no more than logical and compelling extrapolations of the "Golden Rule" and, in and of themselves, make perfect sense to most everyone (except the fundamentalist sorts of any stripe alluded to above).

To live a "christian" life (in the sense of the generally held notion of what "Christ" stood for--divorced from religious dogma and such) is something I bet 95% of us here at the Forum would agree to...

And, it that sense, yes--I have no problem with acknowledging that most of the Founding Fathers aspired to that generalized, humanist approach to harmonious day to day existence with one another, and potential applications in a political and certainly societal context.

But, I feel that there is abundant evidence that many of them were very much concerned when it came to what they properly, IMHO, viewed as the fundamental issue with organized religions of all kinds: abuses, dogmatism, intolerance, and all manner of xenophobia. They rightfully recognized that the rights of others are perhaps most at risk at the hands of tyrants, and that tyrannical leadership has (and is?) most often in the form of so called leaders of organized religion or facist megalomaniacs (rarely, but sometimes combined).

Soap box anyone?

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Sep 17, 2009 12:13pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

You go Tell! Very well said!

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Poster: skies Date: Sep 17, 2009 5:22pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

Religions and flags are men's inventions to worship mostly themselves's own opinions . Tey write it down to pretend it's more real that way ,but in practice it's agimmick to justify their crimes ,tyrannies ,betrayals . America was supposed to be built to get away from religious oppressors and away from ravages of wars . But ,,inrealities america commited endless crimes to control a stolen continent ,get rich off the back of vulnerable workers ,devastated lands to pile up paper money ,sweep it all under the carpet with hypes about a god being on their side and what an admirable democraty they so called have . Their democraty ,is used to bomb foreign coutries ,corrupt politicians ,and brainwash the masses with medias's jives ,no one asking who is really making profits on all that !

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Poster: Grateful Rat Date: Sep 17, 2009 5:54pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

And this pertains to the grateful dead how???

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Poster: skies Date: Sep 17, 2009 6:00pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

Do you aks the same questions to all the others here who talk about politics , Greteful rat ,or is it your happy sense of GD democraty that inspire you to talk now ?

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Sep 17, 2009 6:06pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

in other words, basically what every society, civilized and non-civilized, has done since the beginning of human time on earth. no debate from me - we just do it better than anyone else (immoral at times though we may be)

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Poster: skies Date: Sep 17, 2009 6:15pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

Not better , direwolf ,only worse ,and not that great of an exemple for abetter future for humanity !the est f the world already knows that too!

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Sep 17, 2009 9:07pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

i think u missed my meaning frenchfry

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Sep 18, 2009 7:46am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

We're number 1.

USA, USA, USA, USA............

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Poster: skies Date: Sep 18, 2009 7:56am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

saw that big wave on home page archive ,Mando ? That's how it was going to grateful dead shows in the eighties , oui,oui,oui, na !

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Poster: skies Date: Sep 18, 2009 8:00am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

But now front page wave already gone ,like much ot the rest of it here !

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Poster: skies Date: Sep 18, 2009 7:49am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

Peuh ! mandojammed !

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Poster: banditos33 Date: Sep 18, 2009 7:50am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

once more Skies is proof that the French did fuck waterbuffalo

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Sep 17, 2009 1:18pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

excellent WT!! may you find Windhorse in your journey

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Poster: skies Date: Sep 17, 2009 6:04pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

Windhorse already invited for rides on cosmic trails;he is as Pegasus !

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Poster: jglynn1.2 Date: Sep 17, 2009 12:02pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

Go PM!!



Woooo Hooooooo


http://homeschooljourney.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/soap-box.jpg

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Poster: deadpolitics Date: Sep 17, 2009 11:10am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

The Constitution was and still is a very progressive document, if only it had any real weight anymore...

There have been so many court cases, amendments, and bills since 1787 to modify it and clarify it and apply it more specifically to various aspects of society that its original intention has actually been diluted rather than sharpened.

It's like the Taoist paradox: the Way that can be described is not the Way.

Earl, as far as moral relativism and overly sensitive political correctness coming to end... well that'll happen when its time to get in the bunkers, my friend :)

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Sep 17, 2009 11:36am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

one very GREAT thing about the Constitution is that it is written in such a way that makes it virtually impossible to have an ammendment that limits personal freedom and liberty. There has only been ONE ammendment that did so and it was later revoked.

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Sep 17, 2009 1:22pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

"It's like the Taoist paradox: the Way that can be described is not the Way."

not even so sure that can be considered a paradox. it is the simple truth. Language cannot reference anything, any meaning, withough becoming self-referential and thus losing any form of "true" meaning.

whatever meaning in language that is leftover has been so bastardized by government, media, corporations, etc. any real "meaning" is dying in our Western society.

"Make of words conveyors of terror and falsehood, something will happen to the words. Something of the lies and sadism will settle into the marrow of the language. But the cancer will begin, the deep-set destruction. The language will no longer grow. It will no longer perform, quite as well as it used to, its two principal functions: the conveyance of the humane order which we call law, and the communication of the quick of the human spirit which we call grace."
(George Steiner)

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Poster: jglynn1.2 Date: Sep 17, 2009 1:40pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

a la ducats

blow me


all apologies but I could not help it, you made my brain hurt at the end of a verrra long work day

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Sep 17, 2009 2:12pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

sorry 'bout that




;)

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Sep 17, 2009 1:01pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

Sign O' The Times:

It's time to say hit the road, Jack. The most popular name for baby boys in much of England, Jack, has now been overtaken by Mohammad. Last year in London, Mohammad beat out second place Daniel. Mohammad is already the top choice for a baby boy in other European capitals: Brussels, Amsterdam Copenhagen, and Oslo. And with over 15 million people named Mohammad, it is in fact the most popular male name in the world.

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Sep 17, 2009 1:21pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

are you telling me that "Ralph" has been usurped??!!

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Poster: skies Date: Sep 18, 2009 9:09am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

I heard mohammed is also the most popular bithname in paris ,nowaday !55 millions moslems are now in western europe ,bluedevil .

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Poster: B. Stockwell Date: Sep 19, 2009 6:31pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

You - and anyone - should read an archived article from the BBC Website that examines a much-viewed - and very false - YouTube video that purports to give the facts about a Muslim population "explosion" the West is supposed to be alarmed by. There's no such thing and Germany will NOT become a Muslim state by 2050. The video claims that in France, 30% of those aged 20 and younger are Muslim, with the birth rate for Muslim families massively exceeding that across all families. It says France will be an Islamic Republic within 39 years. Quelle horreur!

According to the BBC article, "It is the claims made about individual countries that are most striking. The video says that a typical French family has 1.8 children but that French Muslim families have 8.1 children. No source is given for this information and the French government doesn't collect statistics by religion."

Oh. Darn it.

So, all these scary "facts" about how we're doomed - DOOMED! - to live in a Muslim world are just more attempts to stir up the usual blah blah blah. The article says the scary part is that the video has been viewed 10 million times (YIKES!)by people, some of whom probably walk away from it assuming it's factual. I mean, it's YouTube, like those shocking UFO clips. If it's on YouTube, it's real, right? People can't actually tell LIES on the Internet, can they? Don't they have ways to filter out exaggerated claims?

If anyone's interested: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/8189231.stm

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Poster: skies Date: Sep 20, 2009 3:36am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

B.Stockwell :I rarely look at You Tubes except for Monte Python ,and I did not know they were people who could even believe You Tubes could be believed in ! A new webbish religion ,maybe ? So called very serious newspapers and europeen agencies claim they are 55 millions muslems in western europe nowaday , butnone of them predict that europe could settle for islam aroud 2050 ,except moslems ,so I heard it said in London . But then men hating women would probably hit it for islam ,I suppose, eventually ,in europe . I can't believe the americas ever going islamic !

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Sep 17, 2009 11:36am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

http://www.theology.edu/journal/volume2/ushistor.htm

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Sep 17, 2009 12:00pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

For your consideration, both paint a slightly different picture, and come to a a slightly different conclusion (Chrisitan, Jew, Muslim, Deist, whatever - any are fine as long as it's something and nothing is not something.), but essentially inside the same frame as Nettelhorst.

The Faiths of Our Fathers: What America's Founders Really Believed, http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0742531155/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1?pf_rd_p=486539851&;pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=0895551586&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1PG6XQVJ9W1ABZ8S2AMN

American Gospel: God, the Founding Fathers, and the Making of a Nation, http://www.amazon.com/American-Gospel-Founding-Fathers-Making/dp/0812976665/ref=pd_cp_b_3

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Sep 17, 2009 12:14pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

I'll check those out when I get a chance. To me there are two main things that can't be denied

1) any motion of a religious nature introduced during the first congresses were voted down

2) when you read the third article of the first ammendment it CLEARLY lists freedom from before freedoom for. In the English language the main point always comes first. Clearly they were establishing the seperation. How this can be a matter of dispute will never cease to amae me

Article the third ...... Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Sep 17, 2009 12:30pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof....

I know this has been rolled out time and again, but based on what I got out of the two books - and this is strictly my interpretive opinion, while Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...., it is implied that the citizenry would embrace some form of religion - Christian, Jew, Muslim or Deist - but not the absence of, and that the nation's moral compass would chart from this assembly of people.

Just my opinion there. And please understand, I am not saying that one needs to be a member of an organized religion to be moral.

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Sep 17, 2009 1:33pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

how is it implied? Even if they assumed that clearly the intent was for Government to NOT get involved in Religion

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Sep 17, 2009 2:22pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

it was implied simply due to the fact that their language, their studies, their thoughts were created within a language of judeo-christian construct. they did not know any other way. (imho)

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Poster: deadpolitics Date: Sep 17, 2009 5:15pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

Agreed, dire...

No matter how "far out" one wants to go from the norm, the new and open-minded perception is still rooted in past knowledge and experience... for the founding fathers this was, as you said, a judeo-christian background that they could not escape while inking that parchment.

Mandojammer is calling for a take-back of the Republic... seems like what it will take is another Civil War. Except this one would have to disintegrate the big federal bureaucracy instead of being the first step for its creation.

The US is so diverse... its mighty difficult for a centralized government to address the diversity of issues all over the country. The locals know the issues of their own land better than some high-brow political type far away in D.C...

Here's a vote for local government, local energy, and local food!

This post was modified by deadpolitics on 2009-09-18 00:15:58

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Poster: skies Date: Sep 18, 2009 9:25am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

Diversity in america ,deadpolitics ? I noticed ,from est to west coasts the same curtains , same Mcdonalds ,same lawnmowers in same suburbias !

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Poster: deadpolitics Date: Sep 18, 2009 7:02pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

Yes, skies, beyond the veil of material goods, people are quite different all over the US. I am not well traveled and old enough to tell you stories, but I am quite aware that an American from Georgia is going to be noticeably different than an American from Massachusetts.

That makes me think, though, that people who live in the big cities all over the country are more similar to each other than to their own statesmen, who are living in the countryside.

In France, do people have different lawnmowers in the South as compared to the North?

I bet there are chain stores that are found all over your country which all sell the same products at the same low prices and people buy them because it is what they can afford. Is it not so?

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Poster: skies Date: Sep 19, 2009 8:12am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

True , Deadpolitics :you are right , I agree , na !

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Poster: Edsel Date: Sep 19, 2009 8:25am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

So, in France, a persons curtains define their philosophy ?
How sad.

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Poster: skies Date: Sep 19, 2009 9:02am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

Edsel : my summer curtains are tuquoise blue with sunny yellow ,and my winter wcurtains are silky purple . Lots of french curtains ae white lace . I did notice americans have sort of heavy curtains ,and carpettings . Here ,we see more wooden floors . It's more a cultural than philosophical habit . As for uniformed sam suburbians houses ,we see them all over now in France too ,and its a bit soulless looking to me . Concret and asphalt are cheeper materials than stone and wood , and it's getting culturally accepted nowadays .As for "modern architecture" ,it's too beurk to even talk about it .Same with so called modern arts . Hippies are the last moderns with good taste ,and I still always appreciate psychadelics arts .

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Poster: Earl B. Powell Date: Sep 17, 2009 4:52pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

Exactly. Franklin's and Jefferson's construct did not come as a result of their time down at Big Buddah's Opium Den. Not only was it the language, but if you can't see a clear delineation between "No Murder" and "Thou Shall Not Kill," I suggest new glasses and an older history book. They had no other predominate ethos to begin from.

As such, they also only had one ethos to avoid as well - and that was political domination coming from the power of the church. They had to embrace the ethos and at the same time, neuter the political influence of the church. The freedoms they offered up were brilliant, offering every rube in a robe his own religion if he wanted and and fundamentally agreeing to stay out of the churches business. That saw to it that no one religion could ever gain so much power as to threaten the political establishment.

As for moral relativism, every generation sees the world existing in their own time. That is, until you find yourself speaking in your fathers voice and embracing the dogma that he and his father both embraced. Unfortunately, dear dog, you are correct, El Camino only means "the way" it does not provide a map. The erosion of once clear language and law over 200 years make it appear like we've not only lost the map, but the way itself.

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Sep 17, 2009 9:56pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

" Exactly. Franklin's and Jefferson's construct did not come as a result of their time down at Big Buddah's Opium Den."

No, Franklin's came from boning some old French chick and others that were not his wife that he left in America. Guess there were only 8 or 9 commandments then.

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Sep 17, 2009 10:02pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

Franklin was boning Skies??????? holy shit!!! things are starting to make sense now

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Sep 17, 2009 10:17pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

lmao! That's good!

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Poster: skies Date: Sep 18, 2009 9:49am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

Never met any franklin,anywhere , direwolf !

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Sep 17, 2009 1:36pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

Agreed, it's very clear that the Government was not supposed to get involved in religion - which presumes that there is/was a religion to not get involved in.

You don't have to worry about getting involved in something that doesn't exist.

That's what I came away from the two books with - I wasn't present when the Constitution was being written so I am not trying to argue that that's what the Founding Fathers meant when they crafted the First Amendment. Just the conclusion I drew from my reading.

Perhaps WT and Dire can weigh in on this - I think they were around....

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Sep 17, 2009 2:13pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

ouch!



;)

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Sep 17, 2009 1:53pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

well yeah, of COURSE it was around there's no denying that. No offense to anyone I hope, but the more read, educated, and worldy a person becomes ( such as the major players in the drafting of our nation )imo the more open minded they are to other thoughts etc. Hence the knowledge that shoving dogma down people's throats should be avoided at all costs.

Good point on Dire and Tell. What say you sirs?

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Sep 17, 2009 2:14pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

but, they WERE shoving dogma down people's throats. maybe not religious, but a non-religious politicized judeo-christian word speak nontheless. (if you know what i mean)

however, i totally agree that the more well-read a person is, GENERALLY, the more openminded that person MAY become. (certainly SHOULD become). i truly hesitate though to consider anything our founding fathers wrote or said as anything but self-serving. the ultimate endroad of the political mind has changed very minimally since Greek times (and no, not Jimmy the Greek). :)

you know what..?... i think i have totally lost focus on what the hell i was even trying to say - lol!! oh well, i dont feel like revising :)

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Sep 17, 2009 3:42pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

I don't think they were shoving it down anyone's throats. They already had a representational congress BEFORE independence. Also, interestingly, apparently both Franklin and Jefferson were notorious for NEVER speaking their minds in public in any sort of confrontational way in contrast to the New Englanders who didn't hold their opions back much if any. Of course it was self motivated, no species alive on the planet is ever going to exist without self motivation but I do certainly think it was done with more higher intent that JUST self interest. Oterwise what would be the point to not just get over on anybody they could?

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Sep 17, 2009 5:27pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

"in contrast to the New Englanders who didn't hold their opions back much if any"


hey! is that a personal jab????

:)

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Sep 17, 2009 9:49pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

no but hey, you just proved my point. Thanks! : )

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Sep 17, 2009 10:01pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

lol


you know us northerners cannot help ourselves :)

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Poster: snori Date: Sep 18, 2009 4:53am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

JOTS and others.

Here's a link to a very very long piece that you may find interesting if you have the time.

http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Sep 18, 2009 8:39am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

thanks snori. Pretty much my point although some were certainly. Adams for instance had a fairly strong Christian faith, his Dad was a Deacon and he was thought to have followed in his footsteps as a kid but knew it wasnt for him. I don't know exactly what context these quotes are but I suspect that being the incredibly well read man that he was that he saw the institutions of Christianity for what they were.

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Poster: snori Date: Sep 18, 2009 11:38am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

Was that drama series on Adams realistic ? I only saw a few episodes but he came across as thoughtful and compassionate, while understanding the huge responsibility of Public Office. Could do with a few more of those today. Perhaps I ought to read more about him.

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Sep 18, 2009 11:46am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

I read the book and the miniseries was accurate to the book. Apparently Adams kept a ton of his VAST correspondence and writings, most of it being with his main confidant his wife. The author based much of the book on the public record and Adams records so I believe it to be pretty accurate.

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Sep 18, 2009 12:16pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

is that the david mccullough (sp?) book? If so, great stuff.

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Sep 18, 2009 12:35pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

yeah, did you read it as well?

I need to read more about the revolution. Most people I know seem to be more civil war buffs but I've always loved and respected the hell out of the revolution. What guts and determination huh? And a lot of it coming from people who weren't THAT bad off financially. It wasn't like just the peasants uprising out of starvation

This post was modified by johnnyonthespot on 2009-09-18 19:35:59

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Sep 18, 2009 12:59pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

I did. Great book. He's very good. As a past teacher of US History, I eat that stuff up.

Yea, re that era - gotta love some of the characters that shapped things down until today. I know the "greatest generation" stuff for WWII sells in the marketplace, but those guys (including many members of my family, bless 'em) wouldn't have been off fighting to protect something if it hadn't first been put in place by those folks. Growing up in Viriginia, kind of hard to escape the revolutionary and civil war eras.

This post was modified by bluedevil on 2009-09-18 19:57:50

This post was modified by bluedevil on 2009-09-18 19:59:41

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Poster: William Tell Date: Sep 18, 2009 1:32pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

veb and I have been on about this before, but an under appreciated historical period with profound consequences for all that has happened since is WWI thru to 39...amazing the ongoing political and societal ramifications of that period and the folks that were involved, including, of course, our oft quoted previous PM, Winnie, rightly selected as the most significant fellow of the first 50 yrs of the 20th century. Lots of excellent books cover the period.

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Sep 18, 2009 1:33pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

" Growing up in Viriginia, kind of hard to escape the revolutionary and civil war eras. "

that's for sure. heck you guys pretty much ran the show. With the exception of Adams, Virgians pretty much had the monoply on the Presidency

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Poster: skies Date: Sep 18, 2009 8:52am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

You plan to take back your republic by wagging a flag and approving wars against civilians in irak and afghanistan ,mandojammer ?

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Sep 18, 2009 8:59am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

"irak"????

is that a place??

sounds like a really cool monster from Dungeons and Dragons!

("Watch yourself Soulcarver! That irak has alot of hit points and a really low armor class. You'd better use your +4 Vorpal Longsword against him!")

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Poster: skies Date: Sep 18, 2009 10:00am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

Euh, I didn't understand what you just said ,direwolf .Maybe in english it is Iraq ? In french it is Irak .It used to be the least obsessional religious place among arab nations ,and so were particularly hated for that ,if you see what I mean .Saoudy Arabia was glad to wipe out , with US help ,such a not religiouly good enough place ,and now ,indeed,religion is what's what there (and taking the petrol too of couse !)

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Poster: William Tell Date: Sep 18, 2009 7:30pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

Please check with the folks, sons of Hussein, that took control of Iraq (check the spelling) with the assistance of more brits...they are also the ones that said Palestine could be forgotten as the smells that emanated from there were not to be tolerated (their words not mine)...history is an important teacher if we will only listen.

This post was modified by William Tell on 2009-09-19 02:30:23

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Poster: skies Date: Sep 18, 2009 5:38pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

Euh, W.T.,i thought both sons of Hussein died not long after their father ,and his daughter being a refugiee outside Iraq for many years already ? Not a fan of that clan ,myself !

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Poster: William Tell Date: Sep 18, 2009 7:20pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

"We Arabs... look with the deepest sympathy on the Zionist movement. Our deputation here in Paris is fully acquainted with the proposals submitted yesterday by the Zionist Organisation to the Peace Conference, and we regard them as moderate and proper. We will do our best, in so far as we are concerned, to help them through; we will wish the Jews a most hearty welcome home... I look forward, and my people with me look forward, to a future in which we will help you and you will help us, so that the countries in which we are mutually interested may once again take their places in the community of the civilised peoples of the world."

That is a quote from one of the four brothers, the one that ruled Iraq first, 22 to 33 or so...the others were: Ali, who briefly succeeded to the throne of Hejaz before its loss to the Saud family; Abdullah, later became the king of Transjordan, and whose descendants rule the kingdom, that has been known ever since as the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan; Faisal, was briefly proclaimed King of Syria, and ended up becoming King of Iraq; and Prince Zeid...

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Poster: skies Date: Sep 19, 2009 8:16am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

Are you saying ,William Tell ,that saddam hussein 's family clan rules in Jordany ,and whatever else ? I never heard any of this before . Are we here talking of the same Hussein ? What I heard was saddam hussein overthrew the Iraqigoverment because he was a communist and didn't agree with monarchy for his country .I still think we are not talking of the same hussein here ,but if you confirm then ,i'll take your word for it , as i won't bother about hussein nor mohammed another minute !

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Poster: William Tell Date: Sep 19, 2009 12:42pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

Nope; no relationship...was just pointing out how complex the whole mess is, and that originally, arabs supported recognition of a Zionist homeland while they were busy dividing up the spoils of the mideast with the help of the brits, etc., etc.

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Poster: skies Date: Sep 20, 2009 3:55am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

"Dividing the spoils of the mid East ",you say, W.Tell ? What was left of the ottoman empire ?

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Poster: William Tell Date: Sep 20, 2009 6:14am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

Yep; and expanding from each of their original homelands...would be like what "we" did while moving west in the 1800s, after kicking the French out...hmmm, maybe we bought them off? Purchase of some kind, but you get the idea. Most would say the Hejaz had more rights than the others, but they were basically a clannish sort (hmmm, have times changed?).

Here's the trivia: who said they are "...a silly little people...barbarous and cruel..."? Auda abu tey defended him regularly, but he fig'd he was refering to Fasial when he said it.

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Poster: hippie64 Date: Sep 19, 2009 1:03pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

But were the Arabs really sincere w/ that proposal? I'm thinking that once the idea of a Jewish nation in the heart of Palastine came to fruition in 1947 that they (the Jews) no longer had the support of any Arab kingdom.
If I'm to understand the qoute it never mentions an Israel,so once the Jewish nation was established through the war in 47 all that "goowill went out the window. Then w/ attemts to expand to the Siani (sic?) and Gaza was when things really went to hell (metaphoriclly speaking of course) What a crazy world full of double-talking monarchs and Politicans

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Poster: William Tell Date: Sep 19, 2009 2:35pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

You are right, H, that by 49, times had changed, but really the point in 1919 is that the House of Hussein "got theirs" and were more than happy to drop Palestine into the Dead Sea...no real "arabs" coulda given a rats ass about that area...they wanted the oil rich areas. Now, that's not to say they didn't change their minds later, but just goes to show there ain't no arabs/palestinians with first rights on who's been wronged, etc. If anything, the Palestinians have a much bigger bone to pick with their treatment by their own "arab" neighbors...esp with respect to the plight of refugees...

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Poster: hippie64 Date: Sep 19, 2009 3:35pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

Amen to plight of of the Palestinians. I need to read up on this more. Now that Iran is threatning again I think our options in the area are few. Then you have the N. Korea Debacle
I just wish the water table wasn't so high on my property otherwise I'd already have a kick-ass bomb shelter.
Thank you for your response and and God willing we'll all be here to post again tommorrow.
Peace